Where the heck did you come from?
I grew up in Joplin, Missouri. I went to a tech school; I took electronics, so I was with the kids who welded — there was a nerdy, redneck thing going on. I graduated in 1982. At that point, I didn't want to go into electrical engineering — I wanted to be a computer programmer. But I was also the kid who had the coolest stereo! I had a great stereo at home and a good stereo in the car. I had a shitty car but great speakers.
It sounds like you were a huge music fan.
I still am! I'm into what all the kids were into in 1982, like Pink Floyd. My first concert was The Talking Heads. I was in a town where things weren't cool and we didn't have access to a lot of outside culture. But I heard about Blondie and all the good stuff. I met up with some guys who worked an auto upholstery shop and we started to jam. I remember playing a gig and afterwards there would be girls hanging around. I realized I could be with my programs, waiting for something to print out; or I could be at the club with real girls who wanted to talk to me. I quit college. There was a really cool rock scene coming out of Lawrence and Kansas City. All these really great bands would come to our little neck of the woods. I went to this club called Sgt. Peppers to see all these great shows and I just fell in love with making music. I loved the way it felt watching the bands and feeling the kick drum in my gut. I loved watching people react to the music. I went from being a computer nerd to an audio nerd. I started mixing bands and doing live sound. I started working at RadioShack, repairing computers. I was also working at a really cool music store. Working there, I got offered my first road gig. It's kind of funny because the drummer in that band [Danny Carey] is now the drummer for Tool — he was in a cover band at the time. Then I started mixing this band called A Picture Made. We did shows with Sonic Youth, Soul Asylum and Camper Van Beethoven, plus we recorded our first EP with Mitch Easter [Tape Op #21].
How did you first get into studio work?
I'd been recording in a little studio in Grove, Oklahoma, but there was a bigger studio [Massey Studio] in Joplin — the guy who owned the music store in town owned it. It actually had two [Otari] MX-70, 16-tracks, an [Allen & Heath] Syncon B 40-channel desk and a 1/4-inch deck. It was a real studio in its time — it had a carpeted drum booth! The owner, Rick Massey, had taped Maxi Pads to all the drumheads to get that nice gated sound. I immediately took them off! One day a guy didn't show up for work and Rick literally handed me a set of keys. I tried to give them back and he was like, "No, those are yours. You're the new engineer. You know more than any of us, and what you don't know, I'll teach you." I went back the next day and he offered me $5 an hour to engineer and I could do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. He asked me to get started that weekend with a gospel band. Little did I know how much I would learn! I think the first full album I recorded was by The Crusaders for Christ — Kicking Up Gold Dust. I'm sure I still have the cassette tape in my attic somewhere! That was my start. I worked there until about 1990. That's where I learned to edit tape. I was also still touring with A Picture Made, until they broke up. That was the circuit. You would go play shows with Soul Asylum and The Replacements.
I remember Soul Asylum staying at our house.
Yeah, none of those bands had a lot of money at the time. Anyway, in about 1990, I got laid off.
From the studio?
Yeah. When A Picture Made broke up in '88, I went to work for Rick repairing guitar amps. We installed PA systems in churches and schools, which was my daytime gig. I was still working at the studio. But in '90 I got laid off. I was out with some band and the owner of a club (who I won't name) offered me a job running the club. It turns out his main gig was selling cocaine.
There were a lot of clubs like that then.
No one went to the bar; everyone went upstairs. It's funny how there could be a slow night at the club but there would be money everywhere. I got really tired of that. In the meantime, I'd met Lou Whitney. Years earlier I'd happened to catch a Morells show by chance. I didn't know who Lou was, but I really wanted a job with this guy. I went to work with Lou at his place, Column One Studios, which was a really cool studio.
What kind of jobs was he doing around then?
He'd just done Eric "Roscoe" Ambel's [Tape Op #13] Roscoe's Gang record. He did a record for Scott Kempner from the Del-Lords; I worked on that with him. He was working with Dave Alvin. He also had a band called The Skeletons — I did a lot of shows with them. I was doing all the local bands. I don't know if you had this out West, but in the Midwest we had a little "ska scare." There was a band in St. Louis called The Urge and they were huge. They played with a lot of horns and all the sudden there were all these horn bands. I was still doing a lot of local albums during this time.
Were you making more than $5 an hour? [laughter]
Well, I thought I made $10 but Lou corrected me — I was making $7! I was also doing a lot of live shows. I met a guy who worked for Kris Kristofferson on the road. He gave me a call and said, "Hey, Tammy Wynette wants to rent our monitors for the day. Can you take them down there?" Of course! So, I drove them down and set them up. They [the crew] turned up late and I already had everything all set up. I stayed to watch the show; little did I know I'd see it 3,000 more times! I continued working for Lou in the meantime. A few more Tammy shows came up, but nothing big at the time.
It sounds like you had a good learning curve.
It was great! When I worked with Lou, I got to see how he worked with the bands. That was the biggest lesson. He also had me doing some of the studio maintenance. He taught me his tricks. But really what he did, and I think this is what's missing today in schools, is he let me make mistakes. He'd sit and listen to what I'd recorded. He'd really listen and give me constructive criticism. In '91 I got a call asking if I'd move to Nashville to work with Tammy Wynette. It dawned on me that I was moving to Nashville, the music capitol of the world! I asked what it paid and learned it was $200 a day. Hell, I'm on my way! I actually commuted for a while, I didn't make the move right away. Nashville was a lot seedier in those days. I was doing monitors, which I'm not very good at! But seven months in, a guy quit and they hired me to be the production manager and mix front of house. I did that for four more years. I still commuted back to Springfield to do records from time to time.
Would they give you a pretty good idea of your schedule in advance when you were working front of house?
Yeah, they did a good job. It was great working for Tammy, especially in the beginning when she did a fair number of dates every year. It was sad when her health got worse. She began working less and less and had to cancel gigs. We wouldn't get paid for gigs that got cancelled. It got hard. But what this is all leading up to is my roommate took a job as a lighting designer with Martina McBride. He'd done her very first showcase in Nashville. She had a big hit ["My Baby Loves Me"] on her second record in 1993 [The Way That I Am]. I hadn't done anything in the studio since '96. Everywhere I applied for jobs here, they wanted to hire me as an intern. I was 29 years old and had basically run a studio for four years. There was no way I was going to be an intern. The reality is, I should have done it. There are a lot of things to learn here.
It's a different system, isn't it?
It is! My roommate sent McBride to me, because he knew I needed the work. It was less than I'd been earning before, but I took it. After a few months Martina got pregnant, so I took a job with Nanci Griffith. While I was touring with her, we did a show with the Nashville Symphony and the Nashville Ballet. I recorded the show for her on my Pro Tools 3 system on a Mac PowerBook. I gave her a disc of it and she gave it to producer Peter Asher. It was funny because she told him, "This is really what I wanted Flyer to sound like." [laughter]
That's a good thing to tell your producer!
Yeah, thanks! I ran into Jars of Clay through this show — I went to see their soundcheck. At the time I was working for Clair Brothers. Martina's husband, John McBride, had a sound company that had been bought out by Clair Brothers. I talked to Clair and I asked to do monitors for Jars, but they needed me on front of house. Perfect! Martina asked me back the next year and I did it for a while, but it wasn't working for me. I got my job with Jars of Clay back and started doing a ton of live recording for them. I did a lot of off the desk recordings for their fan club and whatnot. In early 2001 we started doing a Christmas album, but it was quickly clear that no one had Christmas on their mind — it was turning into a proper album. The producer, Dennis Herring, ended up bowing out to do another Counting Crows record, which never materialized. Jars decided to move ahead and do the record themselves. That was their album The Eleventh Hour. Meanwhile, I'd been talking to John McBride about his desire to build a studio. After September 11, work fell out everywhere, but John was looking to buy gear and start a studio. What he was building eventually became Blackbird Studios. He called me to help him build the studio; at the time, no one was in charge. I started doing the wiring, testing the gear and building the machine room for Studio A. Later that year he bought an API console that had been on the floor at the AES show. Then we built Studio B. That was my life for the next couple of years. I was also recording Martina. I did a lot of recording for her; all the vocals and ancillary stuff. I also did a few songs and a lot of overdubs for a Keb' Mo' record [Keep it Simple].
Did you have an official capacity or title at Blackbird?
I was the chief engineer. For a long time I was also the studio manager, but it just kept getting bigger and bigger. For a while, there were only five of us there but eventually we had to get other people. We were initially a one-room, $3 million facility. His goal was $1 million and half! I think it's over 10-15 times that now.
Always double the money and triple the time!
Yep! It just kept getting bigger and bigger. In 2004, we bought the space behind the structure to build Studios C and D. I did sessions with [Willie] Nelson and [Merle] Haggard. I did a bunch of classic country stuff. I also did a single with The Secret Machines. That's the deal of working in Nashville — if they know you, they'll use you. I was trying to be an engineer, but I didn't have time to do it. I always thought it would sort itself out once we stopped building the studio. But we never stopped building!
What is John's secret to putting together an over-the-top studio like Blackbird?
If you build it, they will come.
There are already plenty of studios in Nashville and there's plenty of gear. What's the difference with Blackbird you saw that brought people in?
A couple of things. I think we did everything in our power to make sure it was the best quality audio at all times. We weren't trying to bring in the artist, as much as we were trying to make the engineer so comfortable that he couldn't imagine going anywhere else! Whenever an engineer came in and made a suggestion, we did it. If someone wanted it, that means someone else will want it. It really was a stupid field of dreams. In studio terms, you either supply service — and when I say "service" I mean everything from snacks and the reception to audio and gear — or you supply a room for a budget. I think Blackbird harkens back to the old studio days. Bands that recorded then had to be good; they were vetted out by the financials of recording. If you weren't good enough for someone to spend money on you, you wouldn't record.
What's the story behind the financing of something like this?
