At a young age you were a guitar player. What was the first band you had?
It was called the Roadhouse Blues Jammers, and it consisted of my friend Tom on violin, my brother Harry on Tupperware (filled with different amounts of water) and myself on a Harmony triple pickup guitar.
Wow was it a Rocket or something?
No it wasn't even that, it was "No Name", the triple pickup version from Sears with a Hohner amplifier.
So out of that was born the Pulsars?
Oh, no. The Pulsars came way later.
After the Larry Cash Project?
Larry Cash, after Ashtray Boy...
Ashtray Boy was another one of your bands?
Yeah.
Did any of these bands put out any CDs?
Ashtray Boy has actually put out five CDs on Ajax and Feels Good All Over Records. They're still together. I'm kind of a rotating.... I play when I have the time. I usually play keyboards.
And did you produce the CDs?
Usually it was a group effort, but...
So this was all done in your basement?
Liz Phair sang on our first record. As she was recording Exile in Guyville, she would come over after her session and sing back up. That was all started on a 1/2 inch 16 track in 1991.
This is all pre-King Size, which is your studio that you own here in beautiful downtown Wicker Park, Chicago.
Shithole.
No, no we love King Size. So before you had King Size Studios, you had the studio in your basement. What other bands did you record in your basement studio?
Mostly local hardcore bands. A band called Flesh Merchant, a band called Freedom- a couple of bands from the north shore of Chicago.
What year was this?
This was between '88 and '92. We started King Size around '92.
So around '88 was when you got into recording?
I actually got into recording pretty early, starting with the Roadhouse Blues Jammers. We would do boombox recordings and we figured, "Hey we could move instruments further away to get the mix right." So pretty early, in sixth or seventh grade, we started to dabble with boombox recording. In eighth grade I had saved up enough money to get an X15 Fostex four track. I had that for about a year, until I figured I needed something more. That's where the addiction started.
So the next move was to a 16 track?
The next move was to a Fostex 250, then to a 1/4 inch 8-track. Finally, out of high school and on my own, I went to a half inch 16-track. I stayed with that until about a year or so into King Size. All our early King Size recordings were done on a cheap 16-track Fostex.
Oh really?
And a Biamp Legend, 20 x 16 console.
Oh man, you really learned the hard way.
Well, I did work at a studio.
You worked for Seagrape Studios.
That's where the 24-track deck at King Size is from. There was an older Neotek prototype console... a really cool console. Most of the stuff recorded there was a lot of mid to late '80s house music. Frankie Knuckles did some stuff there, Ralphie Rassario and the Hot Mix Five, some Massive Attack remixes. I got my professional start assisting, and eventually becoming an engineer there, and learning a lot about electronic music at the same time. Up to then if we used any electronics it was a choir sample from a Mirage.
So was that where the birth of the Pulsars came from? From all your new interest in electronic stuff?
Well yeah...At the same time I was really getting into indie rock, like Sonic Youth and the Pixies. The kind of newer stuff coming out in the late '80s and early '90s. Slanted and Enchanted by Pavement, Sebadoh and stuff. I had that kind of DIY, lo-fi interest. But at the same time I was making the best 909 kick drum I could make for house guys. I guess my growing up, engineer wise, was done in both genres. During the day I would do house music and at night go and record (what I like to think of as) mid-fi with soul.
How did the Pulsars get their album deal? Did you do demos or independent CD first?
Well we had a seven-inch out on Sweet Pea records. Which is sort of the local indie-pop label here.
Who else is on there?
Number One Cup and a band called Hooker. It's run by the drummer from Number One Cup, and his girlfriend.
So that was the first Pulsars release. Did you produce that?
Yeah. Mike [Hagler] and I did.
That led to the album deal right?
Yeah, well we did a demo. We were actually making a record that we figured we would find somebody to release it. What became our official demo was going to be our record for Feel Good All Over, John Henderson's label. A tape of that fell into the hands of John Rubily from Atlantic Records, and that got the ball rolling. I guess the whole idea of the Pulsars, from the beginning, was to make over-the- top shameless pop music. Do whatever we want to do, and not care if it's not the hip thing to do. We thought the best place for this band would be a label that could support us in what we want to do. Experimenting and having a budget.
So at the time did you think it was something a major label would be interested in?
We kind of thought we would start a project that we could take as far as it could go. Not worrying about if it's going to fit into a label's aesthetic. We just freewheeled it and said we would do whatever we wanted to do. It just so happens we got interest from major labels. We said "What the hell?" We're not militant in our beliefs of independent versus major. There really isn't a difference for the Pulsars, because our music is so driven towards the commercial potential of it. The only difference between an indie pop label and a major label is the budget and the support they can give. Like getting played on the radio, which is what our goal is. If our record can get played on the radio, it would be a little a better than what's on the radio now.
So when you were making these demos did some of them make it to the first album?
So you recorded some new tunes, and re-recorded the demos or augmented them.
We pretty much augmented the demo ones. Just redoing some vocals. Once we had the deal we had a budget, so we went back and tried to recapture some of it at a higher fidelity. We bought a Pro Tools system, we bought some new mics. We had a Neotek console, and we got some preamps. We cut some stuff, but some of it couldn't recapture the moment. On "Tunnel Song" and "My Pet Robot", those are all the original electronic tracks. We just redid the drums and some of the vocals.
Mainly to get better sounds?
You felt that it was a major label so you wanted a hi-fi sound?
Yeah and we had the time. We actually spent two or three months dabbling and tweaking. Just because we could-that was freedom. Up until then we were on a shoestring budget. Finally, we could sit back and relax. Take a lunch break and come back and tweak the kick drum for the rest of the day. It was a wank party for us.
The difference, in your mind, between indie labels and major is being able to take a lunch break?
This summer I recorded three albums which were done in three weeks.
Anniversary.
Anniversary was the last project I worked on. Apocalypse Hoboken. A couple of local bands. I mixed Sally Timms record.
You've done other stuff with the Mekons [Sally's long-lived band]. As a producer or engineer?
Engineer. My average project is ten days. That's an album project for me. Whenever I get the chance to work on something on a major label, I jump. For instance, on the Wilco record, Mike and I did most of the overdubs, backgrounds, and stuff like that. A lot of editing. They just came in at two week intervals, every couple months for about a year. It was kind of nice — we get to leave and come back. It wasn't like we have two weeks to finish this record. That record turned out great. You could tell that a lot of time was put into that record. Just sitting back and hearing where the song is coming from and being able to have that luxury. I feel the same way with the new Pulsars record we're working on. Being able to take a break and let your ears relax. It's great.
Having that two months we took off. That objectivity is great. Parts that I thought were cool feeling, turned out not so cool..
Looking at the trees instead of the forest. There's this really pretty tree, but you missed it.
Now you've done your first album. Major label, big budget. You produced yourself, so being an artist, producer; you engineered it and mixed it?
With Mike Hagler and Ken Sluiter. My partners here at King Size.
Having to wear, to some degree, all those hats. Did you really feel a lot of pressure? Did you ever want outside help or did you feel like you needed to compete because it was a major label?
Well at that point, three years ago, the state of radio wasn't where it is right now. They were taking risks. The Rentals had a song on the radio...Weezer. They were definitely taking risks with bands. Daft Punk had an instrumental hit. So we thought the sky's the limit. We could just go and make a quirky, weird audio sonic soundscape. Not make it sound like a Steve Lillywhite [#93] mix. Not to gob it up with certain name brand reverbs that sound like everything else on the radio. We just took chances, and maybe were a little heavy handed here or there. There was a pressure, though; the reality that this record would be heard by more than 5,000 indie rock fans. The main problem with producing your own record is that it's your own record. You don't have the objective ear and it's really hard to distance yourself from it. First, I couldn't listen to the record for about a year. I just recently hit that point where I could listen to it. I still get this feeling that had we an outside producer, things would have sounded different. Bob Bortnick, our A & R guy, had a lot to say on different things, which helped a lot but the day to day stuff was kind of me and my friends. Everyone thought it was cool. No one said, "No man. Stop wanking."
Give it the Frat boy speaker test.
Oh we did plenty of the Frat boy speaker tests.
The Frat boys are these humongous home speakers here at King Size. They are mounted in the back of the control room, by the couch. Kind of the living room test. If stuff passes the Frat boys you know it works.
Yeah, exactly.
So after doing the first record, was this a conscious decision on your part to say, "Hey, I want to gain some objectivity." Or, "Take some pressure off of me." To get a producer. Or was this pressure from the A & R guy, manager, or...
No. It was a combination of a lot of things. There wasn't any pressure from the label. Other than saying, "Hey, why don't you try something different this time around." Pretty much from the day I finished our first record I was thinking about an outside producer/engineer. Someone who could bring something fresh to what we are doing, and doesn't see us on a day to day basis. Someone who is totally fresh. Working with someone I respect, admire and can learn from too. Like you Joe.
Ah, thanks.
Wait! You are working on the record!
The producer interviewing the artist on how he feels to be produced.
No it's cool. I'm learning so much from this experience. Usually I'm the guy who is engineering and producing someone else. I've never been in this position, so I'm learning a lot.
