As a studio owner, I've seen all levels of people calling themselves engineers coming through here. When I see younger engineers coming in who really know their shit, I wonder, "What did they do right that makes them so much more competent?" You're in that group of highly competent and busy engineers.
That's very kind of you! I wanted to be a producer, starting at a very early age. I started interning at a recording studio while in high school, around 2002 or 2003 in Atlanta, and the music scene there was booming. I assisted on sessions for CeeLo [Green] and Usher. Outkast was working on Speakerboxx/The Love Below next door, so all of this excitement and musical energy made a big impression on me. But without even really knowing it at the time, I was seeing the fall of the studio industry. Then I went to college for recording at NYU. I was accepted into the Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music in 2005. In many ways I was a natural casualty of the time – someone who wanted to become a music producer at a serious juncture in the music business. I quickly realized, "Okay, this isn't going to entirely work like it used to. How do you work as a studio engineer in this new environment?" I feel like I was lucky to see the days of yore, and also feel like I've been lucky to find my way around in the modern environment.
What do you see as the new skill set that one needs to make their way as an engineer or producer?
I'm a child of Phish and the Grateful Dead, so I was not only raised in studios but concert venues as well. I believe it's critical for anyone who wants to be an engineer today to have some experience in the live environment. Working in venues, or on the road, both front-of-house and monitors, and learning to multitrack live, is not only going to make you a better engineer but will help you learn how to handle the volume of work that's required to have a successful career. When I was in college in New York, I started working at every venue that had an available slot. I managed to snag gigs in smaller rooms, and then I started working at Brooklyn Bowl, where I got to work with bigger touring bands, as well as on digital consoles. I actually still keep a day job in the "live realm." I oversee production at Central Synagogue in midtown Manhattan. I'm not mixing their services on Fridays and Saturdays anymore, but I supervise the production crew and maintain the sound and video systems for one of the most beautiful and historic rooms in the country. It's very rewarding work, because it's work of value. And the "God industry" is not going anywhere. I get to employ musicians and engineers who are on the road with major acts. They're mixing in the room and for livestream, and it's the most-watched Jewish broadcast in the world. Living in New York does makes for a different economic situation than most places in the country, but you're seeing it get harder everywhere. Even Nashville's getting more expensive. Having a day gig and trying to create a situation that works with a producer's life is hard to come across; but if you manifest it and try to make it work, it can really help.
I've always thought that if you want to make records that you care about and like, there's not always a lot of money there. It's important to be able to support yourself with some secondary gig so that when a project comes along that may not pay well, you can do it. Is that part of your plan?
No question about it! By having day work and managing my schedule efficiently, I'm actually able to take on low-budget projects and work my prices to make sure it suits an artist's budget. Because of that, I get to help people out and work with some amazing artists. I would love to get my full rate for every project, but we all know that's not realistic.
If you do take a project on for less than your day rate, do you try to get some back-end on it?
Back-end isn't something I'm really interested in unless we're cutting my price so significantly that they're almost obligated to give me back-end. In that case, I'll discuss it with their management. But I find that back-end is a useless conversation these days.
Because there is no back-end?
Correct.
I would disagree with you there.
Are you still getting publishing checks?
Yes, I did a handful of records on spec at a certain point; they all got signed and I still see money from those. Getting some back-end, at least up to what you would have been paid, helps establish your value.
This is true. There have definitely been situations where I've dug that hole for myself. But if they value my work, they'll come back in due time. I guess the main thing is keeping up your livelihood, because this work ain't about getting rich. Anyway, with the state of the industry and artists seemingly getting more anxious about the recording process, I got a little tired of only making records. I started working in film, specifically music films. It's been an unbelievable creative outlet for me.
Does it pay better?
A little. It's exciting work. Adding a visual element to audio is naturally going to excite the situation.
So how did you get started doing films and producing?
Several years back, I noticed people were talking about rock docs more than they were talking about new bands or records, like Muscle Shoals or the Big Star documentary [Big Star: Nothing Can Hurt Me]. Remember, Searching for Sugar Man won an Academy Award [in 2013]! I did some digging and found out the directors of the Muscle Shoals and Big Star films were first-time directors. I'm a music history nerd so I thought, "I can do that." Even though I didn't go to film school and wasn't trained in it, I knew there was a crossover between record production and music film production. I started developing a project about the drummer Jim Gordon. That never took off, but there's a music festival that happens in Virginia called the Lockn' Festival. It's produced by my friend, Pete Shapiro. He's the guy who put on the Grateful Dead's 50th anniversary shows and he owns the Brooklyn Bowl; I used to work for him there. At the Lockn' Festival, he was reuniting the Mad Dogs & Englishmen – Joe Cocker and Leon Russell's rock 'n' roll circus tour from 1970, which featured about 30 musicians. The Mad Dogs live-album and concert film happens to be one of my favorites, and there hadn't been any semblance of a Mad Dogs reunion since the actual tour. When I saw that this was announced with Leon Russell on the bill, and it was the Tedeschi Trucks Band organizing it, I called Pete and said, "I need to make a movie about this. I'm way more excited about this than the Grateful Dead 50th shows!" He said, "Great, because I don't know what the hell Mad Dogs & Englishmen are! Please explain to me why I'm inviting 30 people to play my festival!" So I got into the room through Pete. The reunion show was one-night only and was one of the greatest concerts I've ever witnessed. It also happened to be one of the last projects Leon did before he passed. I idolize Leon, and it was true honor to work with him. My film is going to be a combo rock doc about the original tour and reunion, as well as a concert film. We're editing it now, by the guy who directed the Big Star documentary, Drew DeNicola. I've learned a lot about filmmaking throughout the process and the fact that I am working with like-minded musicians as my subjects made it a comfortable environment.
What would you say are the similarities between film production and album production?
Directing a documentary is like record-making on steroids. Lots of similarities. There's preproduction, shooting is like tracking. Editing is tweak central. You're constantly resequencing scenes or cutting scenes all together, so that's like arranging the parts or even song selection. Coloring is like mastering and obviously the audio mix is critical, but completely different from mixing a record, since you're mixing for theatres and televisions. I guess that's a pretty facile way of comparing the two processes but all in all, there are many moving parts when making a documentary, and it's a matter of keeping everyone excited about your vision all the way to delivery. It's been a fun challenge, and I still have a lot to learn. I don't even know if Derek [Trucks] and Susan [Tedeschi] knew that it was my first film at the time. They were like, "Oh yeah, Jesse's a film director." I guess I was faking my way pretty well! They liked the rough cuts I had sent them of the Mad Dogs film, so they asked me to direct a concert film of their own that they were planning on doing in Oakland. Like I said, I'm new to this, so I invited one of my dear friends, Grant James, to co-direct. He's directed music videos and docs for Father John Misty, Jackson Browne, and Madonna, to name a few. The film was the Tedeschi Trucks Band Live from The Fox Oakland and it is my first finished film. It was a companion to their album, which got a Grammy nod this past year. It was a thrilling experience, because they're some of the greatest musicians in the game. And the concert was phenomenal. I guess you can say I've been learning on the job!
It's a much different time frame for a film. With a live film you have about a week of insanity leading up to a day or two of filming, and it seems like years of editing.
With the Live from The Fox Oakland project, it was the same time frame as an album, because they had a deadline from the label that had to be met. We had to finish that film quick, but I thrive under pressure. Chalk that up to working in live production! That being said, the Mad Dogs project is taking a lot longer, because it's a proper documentary and the rights are a monster, but it'll be done soon.
To circle back a little bit, when I first started, I did a lot of live sound too. It's a good way to get your chops. Signal flow, troubleshooting, and dealing with pressure. But for me it was always something to do until I could be in the studio full time. It was never something I wanted to keep doing. What if you don't want to be on the road and you don't want to do live sound, if you want to focus on doing studio work. What skill set do you need to do that?
I truly valued going to recording school, and I was lucky to get into the Clive Davis program because I got to learn from some of the best – Nick Sansano, Bob Power [Tape Op #60], Jim Anderson [#97], Tony Visconti [#29], Tony Maserati, and Kevin Killen [#67]. An insane roster of professors. The through line from each of them was that it's more about people skills than your technical skills – understanding a band's wishes and desires, helping them realize that, and keeping them at their best throughout the process. They made us read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People for the first week of class – that book has nothing to do with music. "It's not about you, it's about them," and, "The artist is always right," are some of Bob Power's rules of recording that still stick with me. I understand that not everyone can get into or afford these recording schools, but if there's any way for you to do some kind of educational program that teaches you how to be a record producer, it's going to make you a better professional.
I went to school too. I agree with you that it's good if you can actually get that education, but some of the schools seem like diploma mills.
Definitely. You have to be careful where you go.
And there are lots of online options, but I've noticed that most of the best freelance engineers that I've seen who are young are self-taught. They dug in somehow and figured it out themselves.
Thinking about it, I have plenty of friends where that is the case, but they all have spent years building their own studios; learning that way. I've never been able to justify owning a recording facility. I know how difficult and expensive it is. I also have drifted away from doing a lot of tracking. Most of my work recently has been mixing.
I feel like I see a lot of freelance engineers who do a little tracking here and there, but they're settling into doing a lot of mixing.
It's very conducive to a modern lifestyle, because you can work on your own schedule. It's also easy to set up a mix rig in your living room, and that's what I've done. I've mixed some amazing artists in my apartment: Stephen Stills and Judy Collins, Ben Harper, Elvis Perkins, Jessi Colter, and Lola Kirke. All mostly in-the-box.
Are you doing any analog summing?
Yes. I use the Rascal Audio Analogue ToneBuss for summing. I'm going eight channels out of a Prism Titan [interface] into the Rascal and then through the Burl B2 Bomber ADC. I monitor via S/PDIF with the Grace Design m905, and clock everything with the Titan.
How important do you feel it is to have that hybrid approach?
I've A/B'd as well, and having analog summing hitting those transformers makes a world of difference.
I feel like the analog summing has better imaging and more depth.
Depth might be the biggest thing and a more honest mid-range and bottom.
I've never really heard anyone say that when they're 100% mixing in-the-box that they think it sounds better. It's always that it's recallable.
Even though I go out of the box for the one stage, it still feels like it's in-the-box.
I have a different perspective as a studio owner, but I feel like if you want to make records and want to be a successful freelancer, the worst thing you can do is own a studio. I think that owning a studio is a real trap for a lot of people who want to make records. But, at the same time, if you can't do some mixing and editing at home, or do overdubs in someone's living room to a very high standard, then I think you're also going to lose a lot of work. You need to own gear, but not too much because owning a working studio tends to tie you down.
There's a drastic difference between the two. You mentioned that you're basically a groundskeeper and maid for this place [Panoramic House]. You're not the first person I know who's had to deal with that.
I don't necessarily want to be in the studio every day anymore. But for someone who does want to be in the studio and make real records, and doesn't want to do live sound or video production, how do you do that?
