You're a composer, multi-instrumentalist, and producer. These are the three main roles that pop up on your credits. Do you identify with one role over any of the others?
I was a musician first, playing in bands, so I think of myself as a musician first. I also love writing ideas with my instruments, so songwriting is probably second. Producer falls in there next. I love getting the arrangements of songs. I love thinking, "This is what the bass is going to do. This is what the guitar's going to do. This is what the keyboard's going to do." And then getting into the sonic mixing of it; like what different frequencies are happening in the track. "Oh, we need a shimmery thing here, and maybe a low end thing there." I guess that falls into the producer category, or at least one of the things that a producer can do.
You mentioned the mixing aspect. Are you hands on when you mix your records, or do you have someone you work with for mixing?
There's a certain point where I started to use outside mixers. When I finish producing a track, I will do the best mix I can possibly do in the amount of time that I have, and I use that as an example of how I want it to sound. Then I hope the mixer will take it to the next level; maybe make it a bit more punchy in the drums, and maybe a little bit bigger or wider. But sometimes my mix ends up getting used. I'll usually mix The Bird and the Bee tracks, and occasionally I will mix a song here and there if people like the rough mix. But a lot of times I'll use different mixers. I've worked with [Mark] "Spike" Stent a lot. I've also worked with Serban Ghenea, Tom Elmhirst, and Manny Marroquin [Tape Op #109]. Those are the main mixers I've worked with.
When someone hires you as a producer, are they getting you as a player as well? Do you end up playing on the records that you produce?
Yeah, unless it's a rock band or something like that. Most of the time, I'm working with an artist; probably a singer. A lot of times I'll play all the instruments on a track. Maybe I'll get a drummer every now and then, or I might get some outside horn player or something. But when it comes to keyboards, guitars, and bass, a lot of times I will play those, and even drums occasionally. I do have some friends who are great drummers, and sometimes it's outside of what I can do on a drum kit. That's the instrument I'd say that I probably play the least.
But you do play? Is that you on The Bird and the Bee?
Yeah, but not all of it though. Joey Waronker is playing on a few of the tracks. On Sia records, or something like that, it's me on drums if it's a live kit. A lot of times it'll be a hybrid of me playing, chopped up, and I'll do some programming with me playing. On a lot of records where I'm playing drums, it's a hybrid.
Do you create loops out of what you've done on drums?
For me, I have to do that. Unless it's a certain kind of song that I can play straight through, really simply. But a lot of times it's more of a pop thing, where I will find the best of myself and chop it up. I wish I could do it straight through, but I'll feel like those four bars are the best. That's going to be the meat of the track, and then I'll fill in some variation from there.
I feel like loops can be more hypnotic and can suck you into the track.
There's something hypnotic about the loop that I probably picked up from early hip-hop, which was some of the music that got me into making tracks in the first place. I feel like there's something really great about a lot of early hip-hop samples, where they loop the intro of the song over and over again. I love that simplicity.
You said earlier that you identify primarily as a musician, but looking back at what you've been doing for the last decade or more, it seems like you're mostly a producer.
Well, that's how I got into production. Production for me was guys like Prince. That's who I used to look up to growing up. I would imagine his productions and how he would build a track with his Linn [drum machine], as well as play the keyboards and all the instruments. That's how I started making tracks, and that's how I got into production. Then later, when I worked with Paul McCartney, the Foo Fighters, and artists like them, I needed to learn another way to produce where I'm not playing all the instruments. I need be on the other side of the glass and help these artists with their vision, and not play all the instruments. Production, for me, is mostly being a musician, and playing, and coming up with the parts, so I do look at it as hand-in-hand.
In 2006, you produced records for Pink, Peaches, Jessica Simpson, and Kylie Minogue. Did that year feel like it was a turning point for you?
Actually, The Bird and the Bee was really the turning point for me. I would say that was really the first time I got to show what I can do. As far as an outside project, beyond The Bird and the Bee, I'd say that Lily Allen was the first record [Alright, Still, 2006] that got noticed. I felt I got to show the more unique side of what I like to do, like referencing older '60s music, bossa nova, Brazilian music, and The Beach Boys. I got to incorporate those elements into pop music. I was free to do that with Lily. That was the first time I felt I got noticed. I started to work in the UK more, and then some of that work started to get noticed in the United States. I'd say that was the start.
So, when you did the first The Bird and the Bee album [self-titled, 2007], was that something you did as a fun, musical project? Or was it like, "I want to make a demo for myself, as a producer."
That was a huge learning experience for me, that first Bird and the Bee album. I really wanted to start to produce tracks and make albums. Meeting Inara was really great, because it was the first time I was able to be self-sufficient, and learn [Apple's] Logic, and do it myself. Before that, I was in bands, or I was a studio musician, and I didn't really know how to record on a computer yet. The Bird and the Bee was the first time I was able to make a full album on my own with a singer. Learning how to mix that record was a big learning experience. I'd never really mixed anything before.
Were you looking to move into production?
I was. I had gotten a publishing deal, but nothing was really happening, except for The Bird and the Bee. We got signed to Blue Note by Bruce Lundvall [former president and CEO of the label]. We put out our first album, and I didn't have much going on, other than some outside production.
Almost ten years later you worked with Adele on her album 25.
That got a lot of attention, and then the Grammys. That was a whole new experience for me. That was really fun. I produced three songs on that album, and we wrote the songs together. I went to England and we did a bunch of writing sessions. In those writing sessions, we ended up doing "Water Under the Bridge," "Million Years Ago," and "Hello," which was the first single. I was producing the tracks simultaneously while we were writing the tracks.
And playing on them?
Yes, I was playing everything on those tracks.
You've got a lot of cool horn arrangements on tracks that you've produced. Do you play some horns?
I don't play any horns, but I used to play a lot of jazz in my twenties. I would play in jazz bands and write jazz tunes; part of that would be writing the horn parts and arrangements. I feel comfortable doing that, and I love it.
Are you actually writing them out with a pencil and staff paper, or are you doing the charts in Logic?
I used to write them out on paper by hand back then. Now I'll do the MIDI, and then the two engineers who work with me – Alex Pasco and Julian Burg; they're great – will print them out. Julian's figured out Logic, so we can print out the pages from the MIDI. We're self-sufficient that way.
Last year you worked with Paul McCartney on Egypt Station. What's it like working with a Beatle?
Working with a Beatle? It's amazing! I get it. I saw what a genius Paul is. Every day I would come in and he'd sit down at the piano and say, "This is a song I feel we should work on." I'd hear these new chord progressions that I'd never heard before. Then he'd play the bass, and those bass lines are incredible. He's the greatest bass player, for me. Everything is very complex, what he's doing. He thinks he's just a rock 'n' roll guy from Liverpool, but he's so much more. There's so much complexity to the harmonies that he comes with; the chord structures, melodies, and everything are so amazing. He comes up with new ones all the time. I don't hear him repeating himself – even production ideas. I think he really likes to always move forward and not do something ordinary. He always wants to push the envelope. I think if he works with the right person, that person will help him do that as well. I really wanted to be that guy for him. Instead of the typical "band comes in and plays a song," he wanted to use a cello, or he'd do that on a guitar part. Maybe we'd have his harmonium doing that, and a flute will play this part – something that's not the obvious. I love that he wants to do that, and he always pushes that boundary.
Were you playing much on that record, or was it mostly Paul?
Occasionally I played parts. Keyboard is my number one instrument. Sometimes I'd say, "How about this, Paul?" I'd go out there and play something, and he'd say, "That sounds great! Just play that." Or there'd be a Minimoog bass part; I'd hear something and present him with it. If he liked it, I'd play it. But he played a lot of the instruments on the record, and his band also came in. Abe Laboriel Jr. played drums a lot on the record, and sometimes Paul would play. I love hearing Paul play drums, guitar, and piano. He's great.
Was most of it more built up rather than tracked as a band?
It was a variety. The majority of it was built up. It would be the two of us in the room adding parts and trying to solve the equation of, "What does this track need?" I was trying to feel out what Paul was needing at that moment. He'd always come into the studio with a plan for what he wanted to do each day. Sometimes he would have a clear vision of how to achieve that, and sometimes he would look at me and ask, "How do you think I should achieve this?" Then I would chime in, and I would start coming up with ideas. There would be days where he wanted to bring the band in for a week, so we would cut it live, which was really fun. I think Paul really enjoyed that. He likes to mix it up and keep it interesting.
How long did you guys spend on Egypt Station?
It was off and on around his touring schedule. He's always got something going on, so we would fit in a couple weeks here and there. I think it was a couple of years, off and on. If you were to add it up, it would probably be about four or five months.
Are you doing more records that way now, where it's spread out over a year or two?
Yeah. I'd say a lot of records are done like that because the artists are working with multiple producers. I might be doing half of an album, and then they'd go work with someone else and I would jump to another project. When I work with someone like Foo Fighters, it's concentrated in a short amount of time. Whereas The Bird and the Bee sessions are very spread out. We're chipping away at it because we've both got other things going on. A lot of sessions are spread out.
Do you like bouncing around constantly?
I do, actually. It gives it a very fun and interesting feel. Do a little bit of this, and then jump to something else. I get perspective and learn from new projects. I can take a little bit of what I learn, and when I revisit an older session I've been working on, I can bring some of that into the new project. Then I can see how this compares to everything I've been working on.
